Interview Magazine: The Art Issue - Madonna by David Blaine - décembre 2014

BLAINE: You knew lots of incredible artists in your early New York days.
What artists today do you hope will inspire your children?

MADONNA: Well, all those artists are dead.

BLAINE: Artists that are alive, that you know—who do you
hope will inspire the children of the future?

MADONNA: I like Banksy. I think he's inspiring and he speaks to
what's going on in the world, socially. I like JR. Like [Jean-Michel] Basquiat
and Keith Haring, who both started off as graffiti artists—their art
is on the street, available for anyone to see.
It's not elitist. You can see Banksy's work driving by it on the street,
and JR's work—the way he takes photographs of people
and turns them into heroes in their communities and makes
people proud of who they are.
My son is interning with JR right now and that's a great education for him.

BLAINE: In the cards, there's a question directly from JR.
But you're not going to get it now.
I should have forced you in that direction. But okay, it's fine.

MADONNA: [laughs] You're the most neurotic person who's
ever interviewed me, by the way.

BLAINE: [laughs] What movie scenes do you watch
over and over in your mind? Like, I see Daniel Day-Lewis
in There Will Be Blood [2007] over and over.

MADONNA: That's a great movie. I see Wong Kar-wai's
film In the Mood for Love [2000]. The slow-motion shot of that beautiful
Chinese woman walking up and down the stairway,
up and down the stairway, up and down the stairway, over and over again.
Everything about that movie, I could replay in my head.
The tracking shots of the camera when she's in the room with
her lover and they're eating together—that movie is so
beautiful, like a dance. Alain Resnais's film Last Year at Marienbad [1961],
also one of my favorites, was the film that created the idea
of dolly-tracking, I think. [Andrei] Tarkovsky is another of my favorite
directors, and there are a lot of beautiful shots in his movies.

BLAINE: Are there any scenes where the actor is doing a monologue ...

MADONNA: Oh, acting! I thought you were talking about camera work.
I can't think of a specific scene, but anything that Al Pacino does
in The Godfather movies, as Michael Corleone.

BLAINE: Or John Cazale sitting in the chair and yelling at ...

MADONNA: Well, no, who's doing the interview, me or you?
That's your scene. Me, I live vicariously through Michael Corleone.
I would like to deal with life the way he does.
When he's telling what's-his-name that he's going to go on
a little fishing trip. My God. Brilliant. Or the scene where Marlon Brando
is talking to his dead wife in the casket in Last Tango in Paris [1972].

BLAINE: "You pig fucker." Supposedly he was sick of acting
during that scene, so he started grunting like a pig in his trailer,
just to fuck around. And he walks out and improvises that
scene to his wife, and that's how it came out, "You pig fucker."
My favorite thing that Brando said, which I Googled before I came here,
goes something like, "You can always tell how great your career's
going based on people's teeth." He was saying that you can judge
what you did based on the amount of teeth that random people,
like the air stewardesses, show you when they see you, how big their smile is.

MADONNA: That's funny.

BLAINE: I think this is also a really important from: Henry Ford,
"Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the
reason so few engage in it." And the reason
I say this is because when I met you ...

MADONNA: A hundred years ago.

BLAINE: I went with you to a museum and you had the whole
Edward Hopper show to yourself. I remember you were jotting
down ideas while looking at the art. I've done crazy
manual labor—I did construction—and I can say that it's
easier for me to do any stunt than it is to actually figure
out what I'm going to do. Thinking is the hardest thing.
Like a friend said when I was young,
"You know, what Michael Jackson does is easy." We were, like, 10.
But most people assume that it's easy because you work
so hard to make it look like there's no effort.

MADONNA: But that's our job. We're in the world of
creating illusions and giving people the ability to dream
and to be inspired or moved.
So you don't want people to see the labor behind it.
Also I was trained that, as a dancer, no matter how
much you're suffering, your face is relaxed.
You have to create that illusion. That's part of your job.

BLAINE: Would you say that thinking is the most difficult part of what you do?

MADONNA: No. Sleeping is the most difficult part of what I do,
relaxing afterwards. Letting things go.
Thinking isn't something you think about. It comes naturally.
Thinking involves many things. It involves being an observer.
It involves analyzing things, taking in what's around you in
the world and finding how to make it inspire your work or turn it into
a lesson to teach your children; it's paying attention to details.
That's what thinking is: processing.

BLAINE: Which is why it's important to have time.

MADONNA: We spoke about this earlier—setting aside time for prayer.
The ritual of prayer isn't a religious thing as much as it is
having a ritualistic moment to acknowledge things and
not take things for granted. For instance: the fact that you
wake up and there's air in your lungs; the fact that you have
a job to do; the fact that you have friends; the fact that you
have your health. You're going to do something that's
going to bring you joy. We take these things for granted.
And, you know, I think it's important to call angels to you to protect you.

BLAINE: You have to explain that.

MADONNA: Well, that's part of the ritualistic moment. The calling of angels.

BLAINE: What does that mean? What angels? Like, my angel is my mother.

MADONNA: Your mother is going to be with you regardless.
There are other angels that exist besides your mother.
My mother is protecting me, too. But she's not the only one.

BLAINE: Would you say that your mother is part of
the driving force behind you, a little bit?

MADONNA: Well, that's another question.
I'm sure that, to a certain extent, she is, but actually,
her lack of presence would be the driving force.

BLAINE: She passed away when you were very young.
Did it make you think that life is short?

MADONNA: I became very obsessed with death, and the idea
that you never know when death will arrive, so one has to
do as much as possible all the time to get the most out of life.
That would be a motivating force.
And death was a big part of my life growing up.
I went to lots of funerals ... But you digress. [laughs]
We were talking about Henry Ford. We were thinking about thinking.

BLAINE: I've asked some of my favorite artist friends to come up
with one question. Darren Aronofsky asked,
"Do you think people are intrinsically good or evil?"

MADONNA: I think intrinsically good. Yeah.
So there. [both laugh] We're all good, intrinsically,
just covered sometimes in filth and darkness,
and our job is to get rid of it, to peel back
the layers and reveal our goodness.

BLAINE: How did your early years in New York City around
great artists influence the choices that you make in your art today?

MADONNA: I remember having conversations with Keith [Haring]
and with Basquiat about the importance of your art being accessible to people.
That was their big thing—it should be available to everyone.
It was so important for Keith to be able to draw on subways and walls.
And Basquiat used to say to me, "You're so lucky that you make music,
because music comes out of radios everywhere."
He thought that what I did was more pop, more connected to
pop culture than what he did. Little did he know that his art
would become pop culture. But it's not like we really had
discussions about the meaning of art.
I remember hearing them talk about those things.

BLAINE: Did you hang out with them together?

MADONNA: Always. Martin Burgoyne, my roommate,
who was also an artist, Keith Haring, and Basquiat.
Sometimes Warhol would join us, but Warhol didn't talk that much.

BLAINE: So you were surrounded by the best artists
in the world. You were way ahead of your time.

MADONNA: Well, I survived. [laughs]

BLAINE: But you knew what was great before everybody
else knew what was great.

MADONNA: I was attracted to creative people.
You don't want to be the smartest person in the room;
you want to be the dumbest in the room. You want to be
surrounded by other thinking people who are going
to say something that makes you think,
"Oh, my God, that's an amazing idea. Why didn't I think of that."
And somehow we found each other in Manhattan.
That's the crazy thing. We found each other and
we connected to each other and we moved
around the city together. They supported my shows.
I supported their shows. We were a unit.
And I don't even know how it happened. It just did.

BLAINE: Did you learn a lot from them?

MADONNA: They were incredibly dedicated to their work.
I mean, Basquiat was my boyfriend for a while, and I remember
getting up in the middle of the night and he wouldn't be in bed
lying next to me; he'd be standing, painting,
at four in the morning, this close to the canvas, in a trance.
I was blown away by that, that he worked when he felt moved.
And they gave jobs to everyone. Keith would meet kids
on the street and ask them to come stretch his canvases for him.
Basquiat had every B-boy and every graffiti artist in his loft.
He was constantly giving everything away. I think they felt guilty
that they became successful and were surrounded by people who
were penniless, so they shared what they had. They were incredibly
generous people, and that rubbed off on me. You stay inspired that way.
I could never work in a recording studio where you have this lovely view
and a beach and the waves are crashing.
For me, it's all about being in a tiny room with little windows.
It's almost like you have to be in a prison.
And you can create beauty when you're in that sort
of deprived environment, which is a re-creation of your formative years.

BLAINE: I just heard the song "Devil Prays"
[from Madonna's forthcoming album], and it's fucking amazing.
And it's not like you were using drugs, but it's all about drug use ...

MADONNA: Well, no, it's about how people take drugs
to connect to God or to a higher level of consciousness.
I keep saying, "Plugging into the matrix."
If you get high, you can do that, which is why a lot of people drop
acid or do drugs, because they want to get closer to God.
But there's going to be a short circuit, and that's the illusion of drugs,
because they give you the illusion of getting closer to
God, but ultimately they kill you. They destroy you.
I mean, I tried everything once, but as soon as I was high,
I spent my time drinking tons of water to get it out of my system.
As soon as I was high, I was obsessed with flushing it out of me.
[Blaine laughs] I was like, "Okay, I'm done now."

BLAINE: Was that song written to anyone in particular?

MADONNA: No, just sharing my experiences that there are different
ways to connect to a higher level of consciousness and that it's the devil's trick.
It is the illusion.

BLAINE: So when you write that type of song,
do you just sit there by yourself?

MADONNA: No, I'm working with a musician. He'll start playing a
guitar, and ideas just come to me. I have a computer on my lap.
I start typing lyrics, and I start thinking of a melody.
And then I try it out and say, "What do you guys think?"
Everybody's riffing off each other.
I like to see the words written; it inspires me.
Poetry, reading, language, playing with words—being around
talented songwriters, you develop an innate understanding
of what notes sound good together. I don't really think about it,
to tell you the truth. You listen to music, you read books, you watch films.
Other people's art inspires you.
I would be nothing without other people's art.

BLAINE: What else gives you material?

MADONNA: My children. Stuff they say. Like, my son came to
the studio the other day and said he didn't want to go home.
I said, "No, you have to go home; it's time for bed." And he said, "Mom, I feel like I'm isolated from your heart." [Blaine laughs] I was like, "Oh, that's a good line.
I have to use that." You get it everywhere, the high and the low.
You've got to be open to it all. Suffering is a big informer,
a big catalyst for creation.
You take your sadness, your despair, your sense of injustice,
and you put it in your work.

BLAINE: Is it easier to write when you're sad or when you're happy?

MADONNA: Sad. [laughs] Unfortunately. But it's okay, because I'm sad
most of the time, so we're good. Not sad, but upset about something.

BLAINE: Should we pick another card?
If you could go back and speak to yourself at age 7,
what would you say? How old were you when your mom passed away?

MADONNA: Six.

BLAINE: Okay, so, around that time. What would you say to her?

MADONNA: "Shit's going to get better."
[laughs] At that time, I had an obsession with being ill,
and I was constantly manifesting symptoms.
I'd say to her, "Everything's going to be all right.
" I would say to myself, "The feeling of ants crawling across your heart
does not mean that you have cancer. This life will be long,
and the world will unfold to you, and you will be able to realize
your dreams, and you will find people to be teachers and
guides along the way, and you will find mother figures
in other areas of your life, so don't despair."

BLAINE: That's fucking great. [Madonna laughs]
Okay. Next card.
So what if you woke up one day and music meant nothing to you?

MADONNA: That's impossible.
But I'd find something else that had meaning.
That's the kind of girl I am. I'd just find something else.

BLAINE: JR's question is, "Do you think artists can become leaders?"

MADONNA: I think they are. Bob Marley was a leader, for instance.
Bono is a leader. Some artists don't want to take that much
of a stance and become too political in their work,
but I think some people want to and do become that.
I think Maya Angelou was political and a leader, and John Lennon,
James Baldwin, just to name a few.

BLAINE: Another artist that I asked to come up with a question for
you is Edward Norton. He asks, "Is there an alternative path to the life you
chose that you think would have made you happy?"

MADONNA: Being a schoolteacher.

BLAINE: That's what my mother was.

MADONNA: Maybe I'm your mother in a parallel universe.

BLAINE: I think it's the most important profession that exists.

MADONNA: I agree.

BLAINE: That answers the next question, which is,
what's the most important profession?

MADONNA: Prostitution, of course. [both laugh]

BLAINE: What's your favorite physical feature on a man?

MADONNA: Eyes, and then hands.

 

All pictures here.